Scotland and Brexit, by Duncan Sutherland

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Dear Mr. Jorion,

Having read what has appeared in your blog so far about the complexities of the decision taken by the people of England on Thursday (but not by the people of Scotland), I wonder if you are yet aware of a complexity which has just been raised in Scotland today.

It is well known that the EU is understandably anxious to have the Article 50 process initiated as soon as possible. It is also known that the Scottish Government’s stated intention is to give effect to the democratically expressed will of the people of Scotland to remain citizens of the European Union. To that end the Scottish Government is going to seek to negotiate directly with the European Union and has decided to prepare legislation simultaneously to provide for a further referendum on Scottish independence.

It is hoped that such a referendum will take place while the UK is still a member of the EU, i.e. within two years of activation of Article 50, and that the EU will allow, in the event of a majority vote for independence, an accelerated accession process for Scotland before Brexit takes effect. At the moment opinion polls indicate that such a majority vote may well be achievable. If the UK government decides to try to block such a referendum, it will not succeed. In the present extreme circumstances the Scottish Parliament will simply do what it judges to be in the best interests of Scotland.

What leverage does it have? This is the point which I wish to draw to your attention. It is understandably not well understood in the outside world that Brexit cannot take place unless the Scottish Parliament gives legislative consent to measures which would be necessary for disentangling the Scottish legal system from its current numerous juridical connections to the European Union. To understand why this is necessary you have to be aware that Scotland is a separate legal jurisdiction from England and that its legal system is different, thanks to provisions of the Treaty of Union enacted between Scotland and England in 1707, provisions which are enshrined in subsequent modern-day legislation governing the constitutional relationship between Scotland and the rest of the UK.

What has emerged this morning is the fact that First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has stated that it is her government’s policy to refuse to pass such measures of legislative consent and thus to block the Article 50 process unless and until it receives from Brussels acceptable assurances concerning the protection of Scotland’s status as a part of the European Union and from London acceptable assurances concerning its right to proceed to a further independence referendum without interference by the UK government if independence proves to be the only route by means of which the Scottish people’s right to remain citizens of the European Union can be protected.

What this means for the EU’s stated desire to accelerate Brexit is that Scotland will facilitate that if its requirements are met but will block it if they are not.

Make no mistake about it. There may now be a power vacuum at Westminster, but that is most certainly not the case at Holyrood. Scotland now has a choice between two great challenges: the devastating consequences of Brexit in a UK dominated by right-wing Tory neo-liberals on the one hand and the challenges and advantages of independence and social democracy within the European Union, enjoying the benefits of the Single Market and freedom of movement which are vital for our economy. And what if that means the creation of a hard border with England, with customs posts and passport control? Improbable though it may seem, such a prospect no longer seems so difficult to contemplate. Many of the bankers departing from London will choose to cross that border to establish themselves in Edinburgh rather than head for Frankfurt, I venture to suggest.

An improbable conjunction of circumstances has turned stability into economic and political upheaval. As the First Minister of Scotland said this morning, this is a situation which is not of our choosing, but we have to deal with it by whatever means we can, and that is what is going to happen, whether our neighbours in England like it or not . . . and regardless of European reluctance to facilitate the break-up of established European states.

If in negotiations with the Scottish Government the European Union can contrive a means to preserve Scotland’s status as a part of the European Union without the necessity to separate Scotland from the UK state, fine. We would quite possibly accept that. Otherwise Scottish independence is a logical necessity, if a country with a population of over 5 million EU citizens is not to be expelled from the EU against its wishes.

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71 réponses à “Scotland and Brexit, by Duncan Sutherland”

  1. Avatar de Juannessy
    Juannessy

    Is EU only a Single Market and a freedom of movement ?

    To be or not to be …european .

    1. Avatar de Duncan Sutherland
      Duncan Sutherland

      A fair question. Personally, I have long believed in the European ideal, although I am acutely aware of the many and various imperfections and weaknesses of the European Union as presently constituted.

      As for the people of Scotland, they evidently mostly accept that for various practical purposes it is desirable for a small country such as Scotland to be part of a larger entity. That is why we entered into a union with England in the first place, in view of the tempting trading opportunities of its expanding empire in the eighteenth century.

      Most of us, however, seem to recognize, some reluctantly, some not, that the anglo-union is insufficient by itself for the purpose of protecting our interests in the present day. Hence our attachment to the European Union. In the present circumstances we would still not really care to be part of the euro zone, I think, but, if the rumour is true that Mr Juncker intends that, following the departure of the UK, the euro is to become the currency of all member states, we might just have to put up with it.

      Many people in England clearly take a less positive view of the European Union than Scottish people do, as we have seen. Consequently, England is now in effect forcing Scotland to choose between the two unions to which it currently belongs. This is one of the greatest follies of the whole Brexit project. During the referendum campaign we tried to warn our English neighbours about the scenario which might unfold but to no avail.

      I remember struggling to explain to English friends at the time of the referendum on UK membership of the European Economic Community in the 1970s that this organization was conceived as more than a trading bloc and that it should therefore be expected to evolve in ways which they would be unlikely to appreciate. They asserted, however, that England, as they put it, could overcome that. Being Scottish, I did not agree. That came as no surprise to them, as the Scots seem to be for ever out of step with the English, as you may have noticed. We are not decent chaps. Like the Germans, we don’t play cricket, or at least not very much or very well on the whole. Worse still, we entirely failed to appreciate Maggie Thatcher . . . and we tend not to understand why a court jester such as Boris Johnson is taken seriously. If Mr Johnson, or Boris, as everybody seems to call him in England, succeeds his old school chum David Cameron as prime minister of the UK, the likelihood of Scottish independence will be considerably increased, I venture to suggest.

      1. Avatar de Duncan Sutherland
        Duncan Sutherland

        On the subject of what the European Union means to Scots, I notice that the Scottish National Party member of the European Parliament Alan Smith has just received a standing ovation there for what he has had to say about the « esprit européen » as well as for making the point that, as Scotland has not let the European Union down, as he put it, the EU should not let Scotland down now.

        A small part of the speech can be viewed on the BBC news website:

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36649733

        As you will see, this clip is followed by a rather longer one showing the insufferable Mr Farage. Note the contrast in terms of tone and content and the reaction in the chamber.

      2. Avatar de Juannessy
        Juannessy

        I thank you for echo and your sincerity .

      3. Avatar de Gudule
        Gudule

        Bingo !

        En sortant de l’Union européenne, le Royaume-Uni fragilise son rôle de meilleur allié de l’Amérique en Europe et laisse un continent plus divisé et plus dissipé –tout ce qu’adore Poutine.

        « Depuis les années 1960, la Royal Navy stationne ses quatre Vanguard dans la base navale de Faslane, en Écosse. Au Royaume-Uni, aucune autre infrastructure portuaire n’est capable d’accueillir ces vaisseaux. Avec l’indépendance de l’Écosse, l’Angleterre (avec le Pays de Galles et l’Irlande du Nord) devra faire un choix cornélien: abandonner tout simplement cet arsenal, ou passer a minima une décennie –et dépenser des millions de livres– pour construire une nouvelle base. Et si Londres perd son arsenal nucléaire sous-marin, alors les États-Unis seront tout simplement obligés de revoir entièrement leur propre stratégie nucléaire. »
        http://www.slate.fr/story/120391/brexit-bonne-nouvelle-russie-migraine-otan

  2. Avatar de JT
    JT

    Your article is very interesting and I think that your solution of Scotland being part of the UK and the UE should prevail. But I do not think that the Brexit will take place. A lot of European leaders firmly believe that the UK must not leave the EU. It was Pascal Lamy’s position on Sunday and he stated that because of the complexity of the task, the future PM will consider that the cost is too high and will forsake that idea. But if the Brexit is finally discarded, a lot of European people will go bersek (in the UK and the other countries) because it will be blatantly obvious that European technocrats don’t care about the people (which was the case in 2005 and with Greece after Tsipras’s election). If the Brexit vote is not respected, it will be a political disaster leading to the election of the far-right in Europe.

    1. Avatar de Duncan Sutherland
      Duncan Sutherland

      Although a majority of members of the House of Commons are anti-Brexit and the result of the referendum on UK membership of the EU is not legally binding, the UK government would be highly unlikely to let it be set aside. If a new Commons majority needs to be created to get the Brexit deal through, a UK general election will no doubt be called.

      It is noticeable that there does seem to be a consensus emerging across pro-and-anti-Brexit lines in favour of negotiating a withdrawal from membership on terms which will preserve access to the Single Market, for example. This is understandable, but, if it involves maintaining the UK’s current obligations in respect of freedom of movement, many Brexiters will be extremely disappointed, to say the least. Nevertheless, some form of compromise all round seems to be the only hope of salvaging something from this unholy mess, and major advocates of Brexit have clearly always realized this.

      As I have sought to indicate, however, compromise so far as Scotland is concerned may be a vain hope. The pro-independence Scottish Government wants Scotland to remain in the EU and served notice on the UK parliament today that it means what it says. It means what it says because the Scottish National Party has finally got what it lacked in its campaign for independence: a major grievance around which it can conceivably unite a majority of the people of Scotland and a cataclysmic upheaval to form the landscape in which that campaign is now waged. Glum and ashen faces all along the government front bench, as the ladies and gentlemen of Her Majesty’s Government appeared to understand that everything has changed. As the Irish poet WB Yeats wrote after the Easter Rising one hundred years ago, « A terrible beauty is born. »

    2. Avatar de Gudule
      Gudule

      « If the Brexit vote is not respected, it will be a political disaster leading to the election of the far-right in Europe. »

      Indeed…..Let’s see….

      And what about the far right and Farage’s lies, now that the disaster is there ? And what about the racism exacerbated
      NOW ?

      Brexit, mensonges et haine
      http://journalmetro.com/opinions/autrement-dit/984647/brexit-mensonges-et-haine/

      Après le Brexit, la parole raciste se libère outre-Manche, où les agressions se multiplient
      http://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/europe/la-grande-bretagne-et-l-ue/apres-le-brexit-la-parole-raciste-se-libere-en-grande-bretagne-ou-les-agressions-se-multiplient_1518819.html

      Brexit has given voice to racism – and too many are complicit
      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/brexit-racism-eu-referendum-racist-incidents-politicians-media

    3. Avatar de Gudule
      Gudule

      « If the Brexit vote is not respected, it will be a political disaster leading to the election of the far-right in Europe. »

      Indeed…..Let’s see….

      And what about the far right and Farage’s lies, now that the disaster is there ? And what about the racism exacerbated NOW ?

      Brexit, mensonges et haine
      http://journalmetro.com/opinions/autrement-dit/984647/brexit-mensonges-et-haine/

      Après le Brexit, la parole raciste se libère outre-Manche, où les agressions se multiplient
      http://www.francetvinfo.fr/monde/europe/la-grande-bretagne-et-l-ue/apres-le-brexit-la-parole-raciste-se-libere-en-grande-bretagne-ou-les-agressions-se-multiplient_1518819.html

      Brexit has given voice to racism – and too many are complicit
      https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/brexit-racism-eu-referendum-racist-incidents-politicians-media

  3. Avatar de timiota
    timiota

    I read contradictory assertions on whether the UK governement can proceed to Art.50 without the consent of Scottish governement.
    As the word « devolution » suggests, there is a dependency and quite some fundamental sovereinty of UK over Scotland since matters such as money, foreign policy, defense, NHS (+pensions and benefits) are tightly knitted within th UK system.
    Looks like an incredible mess, and a lesson in complexity for the rest of countries if steps toward independence and Brexit are actually taken.
    Does the author has a comment on the role of the absence of written UK Constitution on those matters ?

  4. Avatar de Vincent
    Vincent

    What a mess !
    Four days after, the Brexit appears to be a very wrong answer to the very good question of increasing social inequalities in UK… and now, David Cameron is facing a partial collapse of the UK !
    But was D. Cameron trully sincere, defending the « remain » ? I personnally have some doubts about it, since I saw the expression on his face, when he was attempting to negociate the « remain » in Brussels .

    1. Avatar de daniel
      daniel

      Etes-vous un physionomiste patenté en décryptage des zygomatiques de Cameron ?
      Ses expressions faciale sont-elles à prendre en compte ? Brit navy rules the wave et Cameron face would run brexit. Too funny.

      Y’a p’tet ben d’autres critères, plus importants, non ?

      1. Avatar de Vincent
        Vincent

        Certainement. Mais il y a quelquefois des attitudes qui en disent plus qu’un long discours. Je me demandais juste – mais je vous l’accorde, on peut tout supposer, et certainement je le fais avec trop de légèreté – si étant donné la relation étroite que M Cameron entretient avec les milieux financiers londoniens, il n’aurait pas été la mule à qui ces milieux auraient fait porter ce projet inepte ?
        Est-il impossible que ces milieux financiers de la City – très puissants, puisqu’on dit qu’ils représentent 25% du PIB du Royaume uni (?) – aient eu en tête un calcul à long terme, pour faire de la City une sorte de concurrent de la Suisse, et qu’ils aient manipulé Cameron, pour poursuivre cet objectif, sans se soucier du devenir de l’Ecosse ?
        Je ne l’affirme pas. Je pose la question, car je ne m’explique pas la légèreté avec laquelle Cameron a proposé ce referendum, alors qu’il ne pouvait ignorer les liens qui unissent l’Ecosse au Royaume Uni.

        1. Avatar de Julien Alexandre

          Cameron voulait gagner les élections, il ne faut pas chercher midi dans une botte de foin.

          La City a déjà un statut fiscal particulier, et la Grande-Bretagne est déjà le plus grand performant des paradis fiscaux. C’est la Suisse qui aimerait bien redevenir comme le RU, pas l’inverse.

      2. Avatar de vigneron
        vigneron

        25% du Pib pour la City, ou même globalement pour le secteur financier, c’est bon pour le Luxembourg et sûrement pas pour la GB. Seulement 8% du PIB en 2014 dont la moitié pour la City.
        Par contre c’est 3,5% du PIB en excédent commercial (£59 milliards) et plus de 11% des ressources du budget de l’Etat (£65 milliards) via les impôts et taxes payés ou collectés par le secteur fi…
        http://www.parliament.uk/briefing-papers/sn06193.pdf

  5. Avatar de Denis Monod-Broca
    Denis Monod-Broca

    Les Ecossais en veulent aux Anglais, soit. Mais de là à préférer ce fantôme d’Etat qu’est l’UE et à rejeter des siècles d’histoire… Mais de là à préférer être 1/27 de cet ensemble sui generis qu’on appelle Europe plutôt que 1/4 de cet Etat véritable et vénérable qu’est le Royaume Uni… Les bras m’en tombent…

    1. Avatar de samuel
      samuel

      La sécurité…. (économique, physique, que demain ressemble encore un peu à aujourd’hui), si l’état nation ne la garantie plus la sécurité, alors on recherchera la région et si elle ne le garantie pas, alors on cherchera la ville, l’Union est juste un moyen pour les régions de s’adosser à une sécurité relative global pour défendre son pré-carré physique en éludant la nation.
      Mais l’Union et les régions ne sont que les alliés d’une guerre, une fois les nations détruites, chacun s’opposera pour son pré-carré.
      Vu qu’on est encore au: « nationalisme c’est la guerre » (vive la Prusse 🙂 ), c’est conjoncturelle-ment une bonne tactique, pour l’Union et pour l’Écosse.

  6. Avatar de CloClo
    CloClo

    Brexit, englishit !

    1. Avatar de Gudule
      Gudule

      @Cloclo
      +1
      Yes indeed !

  7. Avatar de Duncan Sutherland
    Duncan Sutherland

    Yes. You are quite right. In strict law the present constitutional position is that it is the UK parliament which is sovereign, and it would no doubt exercise its power to over-ride decisions of the Scottish Parliament in this situation despite the fact that there is no precedent for this. The First Minister is aware, of course, that what she is doing amounts to inviting the UK parliament to enter into conflict with the Scottish one. In the present volatile atmosphere this is liable to add fuel to the flames so far as relations between Scotland and England are concerned, and this, of course, suits her purpose.

    In the UK it is clearly the case that English constitutional theory is dominant. It may be worth noting that on the subject of sovereignty, however, Scottish constitutional tradition differs from it and leads Scots (even Scottish lawyers in some instances) to take a quite un-English view of the relationship between the parliament in England and the people of Scotland. In England it is totally accepted that sovereignty rests with the Queen in parliament (meaning the Westminster parliament). In Scotland, by way of contrast, the constitutional tradition always was that the people are sovereign, as the Scottish people had a much less deferential relationship with their rulers than the people of England had with theirs. This un-English tradition remains present in our minds, and we seem to be capable of feeling entitled to act upon it.

    Accordingly, it came as no surprise to me to hear what the leader of the large Scottish National Party group of MPs in the House of Commons had to say in response to the prime- ministerial statement there this afternoon. Angus Robertson confirmed that the Scottish Government has no intention of allowing the people of Scotland to be ejected from the European Union by the people of England. 62% of the Scottish voting public having elected to remain citizens of the European Union, and all 32 local-authority areas in Scotland having returned a majority for Remain, the devolved government of Scotland is presuming to act like an independent government by setting English constitutional notions to one side in favour of the asserted sovereignty of the Scottish people.

    It is, I suppose, a form of rebellion.

    1. Avatar de G L
      G L

      Scotland being allowed by EU to use the British pound would result in a strange and uncomfortable subordination to both Brussels and London.

      Scotland being forced to use euro would negate the « advantages of independence and social democracy within the European Union » you are hopping to get.

      1. Avatar de Duncan Sutherland
        Duncan Sutherland

        As the First Minister has conceded, there are questions in the present circumstances to which there are no easy answers. Nevertheless, the Scottish Government is initiating a process in which all options are to be examined to establish practical proposals which can be presented to the electorate in time for an independence referendum.

        The question of the currency to be adopted is indeed problematic. No one would deny that. So far as I can gather Ms Sturgeon appears to prefer the option of retaining the pound, asserting that « the pound is Scotland’s currency ».

        My impression, however, is that we would quite possibly have to accept the euro, which would no doubt draw us closer to the Irish.

        There is in Scotland, I think you will find, an awareness and an acceptance that independence in the modern world is relative. Within the UK we have very little effective control over our country at present in terms of developing the economy, creating livelihood and, in short, in terms of exploiting the full potential of our country. Independence in the EU, even with the euro, would arguably represent a significant improvement. If that were not so, the Scottish National Party would not be trying to achieve it, I do assure you.

        Too much of my country is under-developed and devoted to large estates of absentee landlords, even in the 21st century. We need investment and we need the full range of economic powers. We also need the European Union and access to its markets.

        Practically everyone I grew up with has had to emigrate. Practically everyone Boris Johnson grew up seems to be in the UK government. So much emigration has taken place in Scotland since the union with England that our population, which used to be a quarter of England’s, is now less than a tenth of it. This means among other things that, in order to generate economic activity and prosperity we need to increase our population, at a time when the UK is intent upon reducing immigration drastically.

        Whereas the UK has been reluctant to take many refugees from Syria and elsewhere, the opposite message is sent out by the Scottish Government, which would gladly put in place a « Willkommenskultur » of which Chancellor Merkel would no doubt approve. The Scottish Government has, however, no control over such matters in the UK, which makes use of our territory for the purpose of incarcerating unwanted immigrants in detention centres to await removal.

        Faced with a choice of unions it is difficult not to conclude that the UK is the wrong one, particularly now that it has recklessly thrust its rather unbalanced economy into turmoil.

  8. Avatar de Awake
    Awake

    Les Ecossais ont-ils seulement conscience du fait que, en cas d’indépendance, ils devront sauver la Royal Bank of Scotland seuls ?
    Ca va faire mal !

    1. Avatar de Duncan Sutherland
      Duncan Sutherland

      Good point, although in point of fact it is arguable that, as the Royal Bank of Scotland operates more in England and indeed elsewhere than in Scotland and has done for many a long year, responsibility for helping it out would remain a cross-border one. I believe there is international precedent for this.

      However, even if you are right, it is a measure of the seriousness of the present situation, particularly from a Scottish point of view, that arguable problems of this nature no longer seem to matter so much.

      So far as banking is concerned, as a matter of interest, our capital city, Edinburgh, is the second-largest financial-services centre in the UK. Scotland simply cannot afford to lose the financial-passport privileges which its financial-services sector currently enjoys in the EU, particularly in view of the fact that there is a very thriving legal-services industry which depends upon it to a significant extent and has expanded to a size which would be unsustainable if financial-service companies were to move out.

      1. Avatar de Duncan Sutherland
        Duncan Sutherland

        On the subject of currency, it is perhaps worth noting that JP Morgan now takes as its « baseline » forecast an expectation that Scotland will become independent in 2019 and issue its own currency! That would be known as the pound Scots, I dare say.

        The question of the issuing of a pound Scots is not currently being openly talked about, however, but no doubt the council of experts which has just been formed by the Scottish Government will be considering that.

        So far as the likelihood of independence is concerned, the First Minister’s visit to Brussels yesterday elicited the expected clarification from both Spain and France to the effect that, as I have put it, independence has become a logical necessity for Scotland if it is to remain in the EU. The Standing Council on Europe seems unlikely to come to a different conclusion in due course judging by expert evidence that has just been given to the External Affairs Committee of the Scottish Parliament:

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-36673126

        In the course of First Minister’s Questions today, as a matter of interest, it was noticeable that what is known as Scottish Labour looked and sounded as if it is so battered and beaten that it may just conceivably eventually come round to accepting that Scotland is indeed faced with the logical conclusion that the option of independence which the Labour Party has long opposed has now become unavoidable. Whereas the Labour Party argued in the 2014 Scottish independence referendum that Scotland had to remain in the UK in order to remain in the EU, it is now apparent that it cannot remain in the EU unless it leaves the UK. My thanks to Mr Rajoy and Mr Hollande for their contributions to the debate. Thank you both so much for playing into Ms Sturgeon’s hands.

  9. Avatar de Chabian
    Chabian

    Merci pour cette contribution intéressante. (La situation de l’Ecosse pourrait faire penser à celle du Dauphiné sous l’ancien régime, le parlement de Grenoble devant « entériner » les décisions royales pour leur donner force dans ce territoire. Lequel fut le premier à réclamer et provoquer les Etats généraux de 1789).
    Le brexit parait ainsi une gangrène qui mine la situation politique anglaise (au profit du parti conservateur, apparemment), et qui mine la situation du ‘Royaume Uni’. Mais qui mine aussi l’Europe, tant dans sa légitimité que dans son unité. Si la demande d’Ecosse est acceptée par l’ UE, on ne pourra s’opposer aux demandes de la Catalogne, de la « Gross » Flandre-Brussel, de la Lombardie… donc ce n’est pas gagné pour l’Ecosse ! Et les dirigeants européens qui cherchent à mettre rapidement fin à cette gangrène, n’ont pas de légitimité, pas de forces politiques pour soudain « achever » (sic) le projet européen : la gangrène va agir longtemps. Au profit des forces nationalistes. Le projet d’indépendance de l’Ecosse est-il d’abord national ou européen ?

    1. Avatar de Duncan Sutherland
      Duncan Sutherland

      I am of course familiar with the EU’s reluctance to contemplate Scottish independence, and I take your point. I do perceive the problem. However, as we say in Scotland, « facts are chiels that winna ding », i.e. the facts of the matter have to be confronted and dealt with on their merits, however inconvenient they may be.

      Scotland is a country with stable well-defined borders and is inhabited by a European nation which currently benefits from citizenship of the European Union. It has always been a European nation and was a modern European state with monarch, parliament, legal system and armed forces and a well-developed system of education into the eighteenth century, when it entered into an association with the English nation under a set of arrangements designed to preserve the distinct and separate nationalities of both, while according to each nation a common citizenship. Both nationalities and nations have been preserved down to the present day, leaving us at liberty to decide whether we wish to maintain the association or not.

      The English are currently re-asserting their national identity and doing so in such a way as to seek to extricate themselves from what they seem to see as the jaws of some monster embryonic European super-state, with the result that they are effectively dragging the Scots out of the European Union. We could have gone on as we were, but the English have made it impossible. This is their mess, not ours. Blame them if you wish. I do, but that still leaves us with a problem to be solved.

      How should an application to retain our EU membership be regarded? It is both a national question and a European one, I venture to suggest. As Angus Robertson, the leader of the Scottish National Party group in the House of Commons, said there today, staring down the Tory front bench and all the little Englanders ranged behind them, « We are a European nation and we firmly intend to remain so. »

      If Mr Juncker’s grand duchy of Luxembourg, whose population is, I understand, comparable to that of the city of Edinburgh, can be recognized as a country deserving to be a member of the European Union, while Scotland is to have the door slammed in its face in order to keep Catalonia locked into an oppressive constitutional relationship which it plainly does not want and on the subject of which it is being prevented from holding a referendum, on the basis of a contested interpretation of the Spanish constitution, I would have to say that it is high time that the European Union took a few lessons in democracy from Scotland and high time that it was reminded of the high-minded principles on which it was founded.

      If the European Union finds that it prizes the membership of the Republic of Ireland, which has carved its way to its present status over a mound of dead bodies in a hail of bullets with God knows how many bombs and incendiary devices set off to take away the lives of God knows how many innocent people while peaceful Scots must be kept out, what will that say about you?

      Scotland is an exemplary, stable, inclusive and democratic society which has recovered its national parliament after three centuries without a single bullet being fired, « without even a nosebleed », as former First Minister Salmond has put it. If we must be kept out of the EU because we have not shot anybody or blown anybody up to get where we are, then we shall simply have to conclude that the European Union does not deserve us and is indeed unworthy of us,

      If the European Union cannot accommodate a country such as Scotland without rumblings of discontent from component territories of its member states, perhaps it is worth considering whether those states ought to give some thought to how precisely they are constituted. After all, I think you will find that there is a passage in Winston Churchill’s notable post-war speech delivered in Switzerland on the creation of a United States of Europe which touches on this very point. Accidents of history and forcible submission of territories to a central authority which they reject for good reason are not sure foundations upon which to construct a great pan-European union based upon democratic values and the rights of man.

    2. Avatar de Guy Leboutte
      Guy Leboutte

      Le parallèle avec d’autres régions européennes comme la Flandre belge ou la Catalogne n’est pas pertinent, car en Ecosse, le Brexit ferait fi d’une volonté écossaise avérée de rester dans l’Union, ainsi que Duncan l’expose clairement. C’est un point tout à fait singulier.

      Le séparatisme écossais se double d’une volonté d’Europe, plutôt rare par les temps qui courent, et Bruxelles-UE ne va pas être insensible à ça.

      1. Avatar de Duncan Sutherland
        Duncan Sutherland

        Thank you so much for underlining the significance of recent developments so far as they affect a possible application for EU membership by an independent Scotland.

        I should add that the First Minister has just been demonstrating today that it will manifestly be the case that a move to arrange a second independence referendum will occur only if it can be reliably and authoritatively established that it will be impossible to protect Scotland’s post-Brexit EU interests satisfactorily if its independence is not restored.

        The following report may be of interest concerning an announcement made by Ms Sturgeon in the Scottish Parliament today on the subject the setting up of a panel of experts, on the basis of whose advice the Scottish Government intends to act:

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/scotland/scotland_politics

      2. Avatar de Samsam
        Samsam

        So consequently like François Ruffin talk about the end of The end of story, still an history who want to go?

      3. Avatar de Duncan Sutherland
        Duncan Sutherland

        On the subject of an EU change of attitude towards the prospect of an independent Scotland (which might emerge before the UK’s membership expires, thus arguably entitling the restored northern kingdom to lay claim to the status of successor state to the diminished southern one so far as EU membership is concerned), the following quotation from a report in La Libre Belgique following First Minister Sturgeon’s visit to Brussels yesterday may be of interest:

        « Dans les couloirs des institutions, certains font peu d’efforts pour cacher leur sourire à l’idée de voir les eurosceptiques récolter ce qu’ils ont semé. Quel meilleur moyen d’empêcher un effet domino du Brexit à travers le continent que d’afficher la carte déchirée du Royaume-Uni ? « Tant mieux si l’Ecosse devient indépendante, comme ça on reste à vingt-huit. Ça fait deux ans que je le dis : l’UE va continuer à exister, mais le Royaume-Uni pas », lance un diplomate européen.

        La même source précise que les juristes du Conseil se sont déjà penchés sur les possibilités qui s’offrent à Edimbourg. « Si les Ecossais se dépêchent, deviennent indépendants avant que le processus de séparation entre Londres et l’Union ne s’achève et déclarent être liés par l’acquis communautaire, ils pourraient rester dans l’UE sans difficultés en reprenant le statut du Royaume-Uni. » Bref, plus Londres traînera des pieds, plus l’Ecosse aura du temps pour préparer le terrain de son adhésion à l’Union. Et plus elle aura de chance de convaincre les plus réticents des Européens, agacés par les titubations interminables des Britanniques. »

        (La Libre Belgique, June 30th)

        http://www.lalibre.be/actu/international/un-royaume-uni-de-perdu-une-ecosse-de-retrouvee-57741ab535705701fd922a48

  10. Avatar de frank
    frank

    Beaucoup pensent à l’éclatement de l’union européenne. Cette machine se renforce à chaque crise. Cameron est peut-être dans l’histoire le dirigeant qui aura conduit à l’éclatement du Royaume-Uni.
    Que les autres état-nations suivent cet exemple et l’idéal européen sera achevé. Une Europe des Euro-régions débarrassée du poids des souveraineté nationale.
    J’applaudis.

    1. Avatar de Duncan Sutherland
      Duncan Sutherland

      Needless to say, I feel you may be on to something there.

    2. Avatar de MerlinII
      MerlinII

      La balkanisation de l’Europe !
      Bravo. On y va tout droit. Beau résultat.

      1. Avatar de samuel
        samuel

        ouais on y va tout droit, mais c’est par la concurrence sans loyauté social ou environnemental qu’on y va.

  11. Avatar de daniel
    daniel

    Que les Ecossais veulent se battre pour rester dans le giron de Bruxelles est étonnant !
    Ici, on sait que la bête est à la fois malfaisante et irréformable. Songeons seulement aux multiples dénis de démocratie, aux Grecs punis et appauvris pour sauver les banques et l’idéologie ultra libérales, au poids disproportionnés des lobbies dans l’élaboration des lois et règlements, et beaucoup d’autres.

    Les pro-bruxelles sont à la côte, sec de toile quand il s’agit de trouver des arguments en défense de leur Europe et lutter contre l’extrême droite. Ils feraient peut être bien d’enquêter sur les motifs de satisfaction des Ecossais…

  12. Avatar de Johan Leestemaker
    Johan Leestemaker

    Yes, a form of rebellion. One might also say: not so much a rebellion of a sovereign people (DEMO-cracia) against a sovereign natural person (ARISTO-cracia, or rather MONO-cracia/archia), but also and in particular, a corrective-rebellion against the politico-financial blackmail policy of London against Scotland after the debacle of the Scottish creator of the Bank of England, William Paterson in the then Colombian part of the Darien isthmus: a historically unjustified blackmail situation, relating the fate of an entire, autonomous people, the sovereign Scots, to the folly of a sole man gone gaga. Correcting Paterson after threehundred (300!) years. Paterson , the Madoff of his era, read Paul Jorion’s L’argent, mode d’emploi.
    re: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Paterson_(banker)

    1. Avatar de Duncan Sutherland
      Duncan Sutherland

      The Darien Scheme can be said to have tipped the scales in favour of union between Scotland and England and so weakened Scotland economically that its negotiating position was so seriously undermined that the federal and more rational form of union which the Scottish negotiators proposed to the English ones was not given serious consideration.

      In the period between the amalgamation of the Scottish and English monarchies at the beginning of the 17th century and the parliamentary union between the still independent states of Scotland and England a century later, Scotland’s economic position declined as England’s improved. An important reason for this was the fact that the joint monarchy prevented Scotland from taking action to improve its position in any way which could be broadly interpreted as inimical to English interests. What this boiled down to in practice was essentially a combination of loss of advantages of independence and exclusion from trade with English colonies.

      This economic pressure was blatantly intended to force Scotland into a union with England. As such a union was not wanted in Scotland, and as matters were becoming desperate, it was arguably understandable that desperate measures were looked to. Unfortunately, the Darien Scheme was a wholly injudicious last roll of the dice which went completely wrong and could not be recovered from without gaining access to trade in English markets both at home and overseas.

      This account contrasts with the unionist myth according to which the union with England was a voluntary arrangement, which, of course, it was, apart from all this economic pressure, not to mention bribery and corruption and the English army waiting at the border to threaten invasion in case the decision went the other way.

  13. Avatar de Julie
    Julie

    It’s time to be creative. History has invited herself to the Eurocrats table. They thought they had frozen it for good.

    1. Avatar de llavador
      llavador

      Absolutly et very well done my dear.
      Mais si je suis à peu près capable de demander mon chemin en
      anglais et de comprendre une réponse simple, ainsi d’ailleurs qu’en italien et espagnol, là, pour suivre, j’ai du mal.
      Mais je suis ravi de voir que d’autres se débrouillent ensemble
      bien mieux que moi.
      Bon, je vous laisse entre vous.

  14. Avatar de alain samoun
    alain samoun

    <>
    Would that be really good for the Scottish people? I think not. You have the opportunity to start or maybe to negotiate new treaties, with the EU and UK, to construct an europe with the people and for the people. Unfortunately your nationalism can lead to a worse economic situation for Scotland: Do not think that the bankers of the city moving to Edinburgh will change their predatory minds.

  15. Avatar de Charles
    Charles

    Que l’Ecosse veuille récupérer son indépendance, c’est le droit des peuples à disposer d’eux-mêmes, en plus de l’intérêt à échapper à cette Angleterre livrée aux intérêts du capital et des ses fraudeurs.

    Mais pourquoi se soumettre à une entité encore plus puissante, dite UE, livrée aux mêmes intérêt ?
    Je suggère de lire cet article de Noel Mamère qui explique avec brio comment, « Depuis 20 ans, ces petits Chamberlain et Daladier contemporains ont inventé le Munich rampant de l’Europe. » C’est ici: http://wp.me/p5oNrG-oNy

  16. Avatar de alain samoun
    alain samoun

    PS: My quote for the above comment was:
    Many of the bankers departing from London will choose to cross that border to establish themselves in Edinburgh rather than head for Frankfurt, I venture to suggest.

  17. Avatar de Clive
    Clive

    Le coup de maître aura été d’élargir coûte que coûte l’UE à 28… créant la peur de ne pas être « part of it »…

  18. Avatar de Julie
    Julie

    I just heard in the news that GB trusts 20% of all the research funding given by the Commission (I suspect this means the ERC grants). The journalist mentions « excellence » and the habit of « looking for funds that have long been denied by the government » as the cause of this success.. no matter how unfair for the other partners ! (but that was not mentioned, neither was the fact that this money is obtained by PRIVATE universities).
    How are the public universities elsewhere in Europe supposed to compete? When no money is available to pay for a full-time secretary who can help write/correct/make a budget for the… « excellent » projects?

  19. Avatar de Albiorix
    Albiorix

    Bonjour,

    Croyez moi, les Anglais sont dans l’Europe depuis plus longtemps que vous l’imaginez.

    Cordialement,
    Albiorix

    1. Avatar de Juannessy
      Juannessy

      Ce ne sont d’ailleurs que des métis de romains ….

      1. Avatar de Juannessy
        Juannessy

        Peut être , mais les écossais eux , sont un peu vikings , même si un peu moins que les islandais qui viennent de foutre la pâtée aux anglais . Pour les irlandais , je n’ai pas vérifier .

        En cherchant bien , ou en revoyant quelques très bonnes émissions éditées par la BBC ou ARTE sur l’origine de l’homme , ou au moins l’histoire admise d’homo sapiens ,on doit pouvoir dire que les anglais ,comme nous, sont africains .( ce que confirme le séquençage génétique , qui trouve plus de gènes communs entre des anglais et des tribus d’Afrique du sud , qu’il n’y en a pour ces mêmes tribus sud-africaine avec d’autres tribus de l’Afrique centre-ouest ) .

        L’expansion engendre la multiplicité, la complexité et les « conflits » (interactions). Si l’on veut éviter des conflits que les « objets monde » rendent potentiellement cataclysmiques , il va donc falloir trouver des axes de simplification pour échapper au carnage final.

        Simple , pas simpliste .

        Au doigt mouillé , selon moi , quatre axes de recherches de simplifications:

        – les besoins vitaux et de base,
        – les systèmes et outils de communications et de représentation du réel,
        – les process de gestions de toutes natures, dans un contexte contraint par nos ressources terrestres,
        – une charte ( la Politique) sur les quelques grands attendus et finalités de l’espèce humaine que la presque totalité ( je reste prudent) des peuples serait prête à penser et écrire , pour la partager , la respecter et la faire respecter .

        On ne part pas d’ailleurs de rien du tout sur ces quatre chantiers , qui à mon goût sont les quatre composantes de « l’économie » selon son étymologie . Politique , donc .

        La nouveauté historique , c’est l’urgence qui n’autorise plus nos élus à finasser .

  20. Avatar de MerlinII
    MerlinII

    C’est fascinant ! La Grande Bretagne est entrée dans une phase de superposition quantique, à la fois IN et OUT

    Il faudra attendre la décohérence pour savoir dans quel état final elle va retomber !

    1. Avatar de Gudule
      Gudule

      Tout à fait , c’est la phase préparatoire, soit un balancement croissant et progressif entre le IN et le OUT avant l’explosion- expulsion OUT qui laisse place a un nouveau vide quantique, bref les british vont se prendre un big panard quantique de chez quanta, soit a real and marvelous magical mystery tour…. . et en voiture simone…

      « So what does Europe want? Basically, Europe is caught into a vicious cycle, oscillating between the Bruxelles technocracy unable to drag it out of inertia, and the popular rage against this inertia, a rage appropriated by new more radical Leftist movements but primarily by Rightist populism. The Brexit referendum moved along the lines of this new opposition, which is why there was something terribly wrong with it »
      https://diem25.org/disorder-under-the-heaven/

  21. Avatar de Xavier 37
    Xavier 37

    Il n’y a plus de projet européen depuis longtemps.
    Les allemands jouent seuls selon leurs intérêts propres forts de l’euro et sûrs de leur puissance depuis 15 ans.
    La France coure à sa perte derrière l’Allemagne faute d’avoir la moindre stratégie.
    Mr Cameron a voulu faire croire aux britanniques que les problèmes sociaux internes sont la faute de l’Europe.
    Tout ceci concourt au délitement de l’idée européenne.
    L’Allemagne pourrait bien considèrer que UE ne lui est plus nécessaire. Les pays de la péninsule occidentale seraient obligés de réagir pour reconstruire.

    1. Avatar de Marianne
      Marianne

      Cela rejoint bien mon point de vue. Les anglais se trompent de cible. Le délitement de la société anglaise, en tout cas de son système social, a été initié par Mme Thatcher et les suivans n’ont rien arrangé.
      L’UE navigue toujours guidée par la vision économique et financière anglo saxonne initiée par Thatcher et Reagan.
      Il faut voir et revoir les films de Ken Loach !

  22. Avatar de Germanicus
    Germanicus

    Europe is not a merciful enterprise. The principles of the Europeen Union habe been established mainly on economic bases (free trade…….), on incoming money and how to distribute it.
    Some europeen countries are heavely subsided by the EU-administration, they are not really interested in idealistic considerations concerning « la construction européenne » – Europe is a profitable business unit, that’s all.
    Expressed in prosaic words, Scotlands motivation to remain or to join de EU seems to be obvious.

  23. Avatar de Juannessy
    Juannessy

    For a scottish , english is a mother tongue or a language ?

    1. Avatar de Duncan Sutherland
      Duncan Sutherland

      Scotland is the result of a coming together of the Gaelic-speaking people inhabiting mainly the Highlands and Western Isles and the English-speaking people of the Lowlands. Gaelic is still spoken in Scotland but by not very many people. It is also spoken in Ireland in a slightly different form.

      Scots is the form of English which was spoken in Scotland and still is to some extent. Before the union with England it was very different from the language spoken south of the border and was used by people of all ranks. (Some vocabulary and expressions were imported from France due to the Auld Alliance with that country, an alliance which was much resented by England.)

      After union the Scots tongue lost status but is still widely used in a diluted form. A form of standard English which is still distinctly Scottish is nowadays readily understood when spoken anywhere in the vast English-speaking world. To answer your question finally: English is considered to be as much ours as England’s, just like the pound sterling.

      1. Avatar de Juannessy
        Juannessy

        Currency , language … So, English are Scottish !

  24. Avatar de François78
    François78

    Je suggère que l’on prenne en compte le vote des Français sur la constitution Européenne en 2005 (avec 54,7% de NON), et que l’on fasse revoter (éventuellement par région, département …) l’adhésion au traité de Maastrich étant donné le faible écart en faveur du OUI (51,04 %).

    1. Avatar de Juannessy
      Juannessy

      Vous ne coincerez pas un politicien avec ça .
      Juppé ce matin sur France Inter , interrogé sur le deux poids deux mesures réservé aux referenda ( Brexit , TCE , Notre dame des Landes ) s’en est tiré ( enfin peut être) en assénant que 2005 ça n’était pas 2016 . Alors 1992….

  25. Avatar de Marianne
    Marianne

    I do not understand the pro Brexit. Well, no, I do understand they wanting to exit EU but they should « Brexit » the City and their politicians as well. After all, if we look back, they have accepted Mrs Thatcher and all her likes, not mentioning Tony Blair. And the policy of EU is based on their views of what should be the economy : global and financial. I’m not sure Scotts will be happier staying in.
    Why should being out a calamity? Before EU, I never needed a visa to enter the UK.
    Greeks are in and they do not seem very happy !
    The question is not being in or being out, but, how can we change the system?

    1. Avatar de MerlinII
      MerlinII

      The so-called « economy » of the City is not economy.
      It’s predation.
      Predation (siphoning) of brains and currencies of other countries

  26. Avatar de Denis Monod-Broca
    Denis Monod-Broca

    La devise de l’UE est « unis dans la diversité ». Elle est idiote. Mais en outre désormais elle est mensongère. Car l’actualité montre à quel point l’UE divise et déchire.
    On devrait d’ailleurs changer son nom, elle ne mérite plus d’être appelée « Unie ».

    1. Avatar de Juannessy
      Juannessy

      Eternelle difficulté entre le « Un » et ses « éléments » .

      L’Ecosse va peut être nous changer (elle nous change ou elle nous kilt !).

      A propos d’écossais , après David Hume et Adam Smith , il faudrait que Paul Jorion ( ou PSDJ) nous parle de John Law bien connu à Roissy en France .

  27. Avatar de Guy Leboutte
    Guy Leboutte

    Merci pour cet article très intéressant et très clair.
    La position écossaise semble bien définie et à peu près sans équivoque.

    C’est en Angleterre que ça me paraît plus confus. La culture de la démission des responsables qui se sont « trompés » et de la prise en compte d’un référendum même s’il n’a pas de valeur obligatoire, est-elle réellement incontournable à Londres?
    « Although a majority of members of the House of Commons are anti-Brexit and the result of the referendum on UK membership of the EU is not legally binding, the UK government would be highly unlikely to let it be set aside. If a new Commons majority needs to be created to get the Brexit deal through, a UK general election will no doubt be called. »

    1. Avatar de Duncan Sutherland
      Duncan Sutherland

      In times of turmoil much can change rather fast. Here is what is different today: a member of the UK Cabinet, Jeremy Hunt, who may be a candidate for the leadership of the Tory Party, has now proposed that a further referendum should be held after the Brexit negotiations have taken place to determine whether the deal resulting from them is to be accepted. He apparently envisages that such a deal would involve continued access to the Single Market and a compromise on freedom of movement.

      The UK sets great store by convention in its governance. One of the important conventions is that the results of referendums are respected even though ultimate authority rests with the Queen in parliament. The UK parliament has asked the electorate to make a decision on the understanding that it will be accepted even though that parliament still retains the right to legislate as it sees fit in any and all circumstances.

      The golden rule is never to allow a situation to arise in which a legislative assembly opposes the democratically expressed wishes of the people.

      That, however, is the situation which has arisen so far as relations between the UK parliament and the Scottish people are concerned. As a matter of interest, it was Nicola Sturgeon who proposed a means of averting such a conflict quite some time ago. What she suggested was that it should be understood before the EU referendum that its result would only be accepted if it was founded upon majority votes in all of the territorially defined national communities of the UK (i.e. England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland) rather than simply on one overall majority.

      This proposal was rejected out of hand by the UK government. A foolish decision, as acceptance of Ms Sturgeon’s excellent suggestion would have saved Mr Cameron’s bacon and prevented all of the economic, political and constitutional mayhem which has ensued.

      Yes, First Minister Sturgeon is a truly remarkable politician, a strong leader with a sure touch and much experience of government.

      1. Avatar de CloClo
        CloClo

        Un très bon moment cinématographique avec Edinburgh en fond de décor !

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9_67BOANCE

        Déjà on parlait de la crise, déjà bref…

  28. Avatar de Yves Vermont
    Yves Vermont

    Quelqu’un pourrait-il expliquer simplement pourquoi la sortie de l’Angleterre de l’UE serait une catastrophe pour elle ?
    Si ces arguments tiennent la route, cela montrerait que les politiques anglais sont des ignares ou des menteurs, ou peut-être les deux à la fois.
    Si j’étais anglais, avec un tel déficit de ma balance courante, j’en aurais des sueurs froides, sauf si j’étais banquier avec la possibilité de filer à l’anglaise avec ma petite valise.

    Ce Brexit fait perdre du temps à l’Europe qui ferait mieux de consacrer son énergie à se réformer, à s’occuper de ses chômeurs, de trouver des règles pénalisants les pays en excédent structurel etc… en somme à lutter contre toutes les inégalités, tant qu’on en a les moyens.

    1. Avatar de samuel
      samuel

      Bah c’est simple, y à pas de citoyens Européens prolos, les autres prolos dans l’union votent mal, alors y à pas à les écouter (vu qu’ils font parties de pays qui ont perdus la dernière guerre, cela peut paraitre bizarre de culpabiliser le prolo par les élites, mais en tant qu’éleveur je peux vous garantir que si un troupeau à une maladie, l’éleveur prend pour lui la faute, il préfère la nier à l’extérieur et râler dans son élevage) mais l’UK n’a pas perdu la dernière guerre alors ses moutons ont le droit de d’exprimer, bien sur dans un continent perdant (les vainqueurs ont étés à Yalta) c’est choquant de demander l’avis à des prolos (on est pas habitué aux prolos vainqueurs), mais de là à laisser l’idée à des prolos vaincus le droit de s’exprimer…. faut pas déconner.

    2. Avatar de Gudule
      Gudule

      « sauf si j’étais banquier »
      ou banquière….

      « Aujourd’hui, la Grande-Bretagne sur le départ, ses intérêts vont diverger de ceux du continent, et même son accès au marché commun n’est plus garanti, si l’on en croit l’Allemagne, qui refuse d’accorder au Royaume-Uni une libre circulation semblable à celle de la Norvège ou de la Suisse. Intérêts divergents signifient relations moins pacifiques. La tendance est amorcée. »

      « L’union d’intérêts économiques n’a pas permis de construire une unité de valeurs et d’aspirations, et l’UE est devenue le défouloir sur lequel les gouvernements nationaux préfèrent jeter leurs populations pour se légitimer eux-mêmes. »
      http://www.bilan.ch/myret-zaki/redaction-bilan/langleterre-nira-nulle-part

      Oui et avant que ça leur explose au nez ils feraient TOUS bien d’écouter plus attentivement les « sonneries » qui résonnent un peu partout dans le monde de Trump a Farage , fallait il « attendre » la sonnerie de « Big Ben » pour que la cire leur tombe des oreilles ????

      De l’audace et un peu plus de démocratie de pédagogie et de « souci » du peuple, c’est trop demander avant la cata ?

      « As if to prove that the EU is at its heart undemocratic, some Remainers are now urging Parliament to ignore the result of the referendum. These fans of the EU are living in a fantasy world rather than making practical decisions; angrily rejecting people for whom they have little understanding and less sympathy; throwing a tantrum. They are, in short, the mirror image of the caricature they have created for what Brexiteers are like. »

      http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-06-27/eu-not-britain-has-a-democracy-deficit

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